And by eveningwear, yes, I'm talking about lingerie. I've had some questions lurking in my mind lately, and I'd like your thoughts on them...Feel free to answer these anonymously, but please, write your thoughts with the understanding that we need to be clear and direct without engaging in tawdry or lewd conversation. I know that to some, this whole topic may seem lewd...but I think these are legitimate questions.
1) Are we imitating the world and cheapening the act of sexual intercourse (and possibly imitating "the forbidden woman" of Proverbs 5) if we buy into the look of Victoria's Secret/Fredericks of Hollywood lingerie?
2) Or, conversely, is it good for us to be visually pleasing to our husbands, allowing and encouraging them to delight in "drinking water from their own well" (Proverbs 5)?
3) If married, do you own racy lingerie (by that I mean, special eveningware designed for your husband's allurement, not just lacy undergarments)?
4) If your previous answer was yes, then do you regularly purchase new pieces in this area? Is this a priority area in your marriage or just an occasional thought?
5) Is there a biblical position for/against this sort of thing, and if so, what do you think it is?
I hope that with the ability to comment anonymously, you will feel free to share your personal thoughts on this. And if you want to post non-anonymously, of course, that's welcomed too. I look forward to hearing from you!
[A word about quick queries- If you miss out on commenting the "first round", it's OK! There's no "end date" for these questions, unless it is clearly stated. These are questions I've thought up so that I can hear feedback from all different women about a variety of issues- fun & serious. So if you've just now started reading Making Home, feel free to go back and read & comment on the previous Quick Queries. Please leave your thoughts- I read them all and enjoy hearing from you!]
22 comments:
Interesting topic! I actually worked at Victoria's Secret during summer and Christmas breaks through college. (Back then it wasn't really as racy as it is today.)
Anyway, here are my answers:
1) Are we imitating the world? I never really thought about it. I think if you are pretending and fantasizing about illicit relationship, then that would be imitating the world, and that would be a little concerning in a Christian marriage relationship, but to just wear sexy lingerie if you are comfortable with it and your husband likes it, then no, I don't think that's imitating the world.
2) It is definitely good for us to be physically pleasing to our husbands. In fact, I think this priority is unfortunately overlooked in many Christian marriage relationships. I think we should make ourselves pretty for them, try to stay in shape so that they want to come home to us. I know my husband appreciates that I do this.
3) When I got married, I had "saved myself" for my husband. I was looking forward to wearing sexy lingerie for him. I bought a lot of fun little negligee type things, mostly cute and sexy, not what I would consider slutty.
However. I did get one black lace teddy that was really racy, had a thong in the back!! I wore it with lace thigh-highs. I guess you could say I felt a little "naughty". I was surprised to find that my husband did not like it. He said it just looked sleazy and he wasn't "into that". (He didn't tell me this at the time, just later he said he really wasn't into that whole look. It didn't hurt my feelings. But I was a little surprised.)
Since then, I stuck to the slips. But after the first few years of marriage, I gave up on any sort of sexy nightware altogether. He really doesn't care. They were for me. So I quit bothering with them.
4) See #3.
5) Without looking up specific passages of Scripture, and I don't really feel motivated to do that, lol, I would just refer to what I said in #2. I don't know if it's biblical, but I think it's common sense. I want my husband to desire me, and so it's my job to make myself attractive to him. And it's also my job to be the kind of woman he wants to spend time with, so I realize making ourselves desirable goes beyond what we're wearing. If you're sexy and attractive but a pain in the rear to live with, then it kind of defeats the purpose! But that's another topic.
If my husband enjoyed the lingerie, then by all means, I would buy it, buy new stuff regularly, and try to choose the style he prefers. But in my case, it isn't a priority b/c it doesn't seem to make a difference to either one of us.
Okay, do I get an award for the longest comment ever!? :-)
Hi Jess
1) According to my pastor, there is nothing defiled in the marriage bed.
2) YES
3) Yes
4) I purchase new items for our Anniversary every year. I keep it classy. We try to go to a B&B.
5) Song of Solomon, HOW ROMANTIC!
1. In my opinion, if you and your husband are comfortable with that type of thing, I see no problem with it. You are pleasing your husband, and, of course, he should be the only one seeing you in it!
2. Yes, most definitely!
3. No, I don't - my husband like the "au naturel" look!
4. see #3
5. Song of Solomon
I'd have to say that any read of the Song of Solomon should put this question easily to bed (ahem!). I mean, look at the wording. This gal spreads her bed with special linens and prepares herself especially for her beloved. She calls on the winds to blow through her garden (metaphor for her private self) and allure her beloved with its spices. Wow!
That said, my dh really likes me au naturelle and finds any lingerie kind of superfluous. So I don't go out of my way to find special undies or teddies. I just try to make an effort to prepare for him by putting on nice music, turning down the lights, lighting some candles.... The marriage bed is undefiled and beautiful -- though I think it takes practice to get comfortable with this sometimes. As newlyweds, there was a lot of laughter and fumbling around, because (thank the Lord) we were both virgins, but that just means that each year of marital intimacy has been better than the last!
You have something to pick up over here....
http://lifeisnotacereal.blogspot.com/2007/03/blog-award-that-makes-me-think.html
Thanks for making me think!
Jennifer
1)Nope--whatever you want goes in the marriage bed
2)Of course it is--like you were alluding to...Prv 5:18-19 says may you rejoice in the wife of your youth...may her breasts satisfy you always...
3) yes
4) no but only for cost reasons--we both bought me some pieces for our honeymoon that I still wear. come to think of it--it's time for some new everyday undies too. definitely not a priority around here:-)
5)Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights…” James 1: 17. I think us enjoying sex --in this context--is as much a pleasure for God as it is when we delight in the smell of our babies He gave us or the glorious sunset He created for us.
1- I will have to tell you that I never thought of it as "imitating the world" - but in a way it is, isn't it? Would we have thought to wear those things, and would the men have thought that we might look good in them, if we hadn't had some nudge from "out there"?
2- It must be the husband's preference, I think. I don't particularly like the way the "the marriage bed is undefiled" is often taken to mean that "anything goes". But I won't elaborate on that here.
3- I used to have some stuff too, but I (and my sister as well; she's the only one I've ever talked about this with) have a man who prefers the nudity as well.
5- I think enjoying the wife of your youth, S.O.S., the marriage bed scripture - all imply that this sort of thing is probably well and good, depending on personal preference. In my opinion, the "against" in scripture would be the idea of spending so much time and money on this aspect of your marriage that it takes the place of what is real, and even maybe what is Godly love. We are to enjoy one another, and our bodies belong to one another (another scripture), but not to the exclusion of other things, such as our day to day relationship with one another, and the way we might put our "special nights" ahead of having special times with our children, for example. As with anything that is allowed by God, it may be made into something that's not so good (Paul wrote that somewhere, "all things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable" - I think).
I would love to see a follow up article on this by you, or someone else too.
1) If we are wearing that because it is the look that we are trying to duplicate then maybe we should avoid it.
2) It is good to visually please our husbands, we did outwardly prior to being married.
3) I do, but prefer not to wear it.
4)Not a priority to me. My husband would prefer me to wear it.
5) Again, here the Word tells us to do all things to glorify the Lord, maybe it is my own conscience that forbids me, because both my husband and I had a "past" before marriage (before Christ for me), that sexy eveningwear has strings attached to a past I'd rather not remember.
For those who come to marriage free of a "past" by all means enjoy.
I'll tell you what Mark's dad told him a few days before we got married (thankfully I wasn't around or I would have been mortified). Mark and his parents were driving on their way to pick up something for the wedding and Mark's dad asked, "Now, you know how to pick out the right lingerie for her, right?" Mark asked what he meant and Dad said, "You go to the store, see something you think might look nice, then you rip it off the hanger and throw it on the floor. If you like the way it looks there, you buy it. 'Cause that's where it's going to end up anyway."
1. I don't think so at all. I don't think doing anything that makes us more desirable or pleasing to our husbands within the boundaries of Christian marriage cheapens it. Remember that God created all things good, and it is the world that has twisted God's idea of sexual intimacy. Our husbands enjoy looking at us, our bodies are theirs to enjoy, and stirring desire in them is not only OK, it's rather fun. :-)
2. Yes, I think it is. That might not mean wearing lingerie, but if it does, I say go for it.
3. Eh, not really any more. I used to have several things. But frankly they didn't get used too often. Especially after we had a few kids, we've become more cut-to-the-chase type people. ;-)
4.See above. But I will say that if it became a priority to my husband, then it would become a priority to me. If it is, he hasn't said so, and I think he would if it was.
5. I think it is essential that a husband and wife be on the same page in regard to their sex life. In fact I think it is important to discuss this long before marriage. I have never understood why so many Christians consider this a taboo subject until they get married. The Bible is quite clear on the importance of sexual intimacy in a marriage; it is a key component to a Godly marriage. I think the Bible does have a position on this, considering the woman in Song of Solomon preparing for her lover to arrive. I think what we consider "lingerie" is a fairly modern-day thing, but alluring clothing certainly is not.
I personally think that no earthly relationship is as important as that of a husband and wife. It takes priority. It means sometimes the kids are getting macaroni and cheese for supper and going to bed early so we can too. It means letting other things go so we can spend time together. It means letting the kids know that they are very loved, but that they are the offspring of an even deeper love, and expecting them to learn to respect their parent's relationship rather than expecting to be the certain of their parent's world. I think a home where it is clear that the husband and wife are deeply in love, affectionate, intimate, and the top priority to each other is the most secure environment we can raise children in, rather than one where the kids, work, and everything else takes priority, and our spouses get "what's left," if anything is left.
Very interesting topic, Jess. And yes I'll post my real name. :-D
I was surprised ad dismayed to find no dissenting voices to the conversation. Most of the commenters pointed to Song of Solomon. Ladies, just a little reminder: Solomon was off to a good start with God, but became a PERVERT and forsook the Lord. Song of Solomon was not necessarily written to be a justification for perverted lust. Solomon sure loved his wife-- er, I mean, WIVES-- and he loved them a bit too much. Keep an open mind here. And let me explain.
I'd like to start off with a few scriptures.
“...because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.” 1 Cor. 8:11-13
“Do not allow your beauty be that outward adorning of arranging the hair, of wearing gold, or of putting on fancy apparel; but let it be the hidden person of the heart...” 1 Peter 3:3-4
“...that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or costly clothing.” 1 Tim. 2:9
“...and they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality (the Greek says PORNEO here) or their thefts.” Rev. 9:21
My points here will be:
1) You must interpret the Old Testament with the New Testament. Just because stuff is written in the OT does not NECESSARILY make it acceptable. It just MAY be there for a bad example, as well. The stuff from the book of Song of Solomon got Solomon in trouble later, remember? See Point #3 for a continuation of this. But my second point...
2) You must not sin against the consciences of others. It is no secret that the porn industry is a multi-billion dollar business. And who runs all these “lingerie” departments? Christians? I think not. Think of this: who are you affecting when you buy that lingerie and pump money into a system designed to bring men (and especially Christian men, down-- I've heard it from Hugh Hefner himself)? My husband works for the post office. You would not believe the mega-amount of filth that flows through the USPS. Most of it is in the form of Victoria's Secret kind of trash-- “soft” porn, when it comes right down to it. Even as late as 20 years ago, our Christian mothers would have considered this kind of “clothing” for pagan prostitutes. Now, it has become mainstream and even Christian women are falling into the trap.
And as you ladies who get the catalogs in the mail know, the catalog is not plastic-wrapped like the "Home Cooking" magazines are. And VC (we jokingly call it "VD") catalogs always place a very porny picture of a girl right above the address bar, so the poor postmen have to look at this stuff, day in and day out. Combine this with the Sports Illustrated, Maxim, etc etc, and it is no wonder that porn addiction in post offices is a major problem. These men are being perverted just by doing their jobs every day. Shame on the Christians who subscribe to this stuff. My husband says it is mostly women who buy this stuff, and Good Lord, we wish they wouldn't. Talk about pollution.
3) Women seem to have a hard understanding the sexual drive of man. That is, once you start it up, like the Energizer Bunny, it goes on and on.. it is never satisfied. "The eye of man is never satisfied" the scripture says. Paul wrote “It is good for a man not to touch a woman.” Wow, that is a far cry from what Solomon said, isn't it? Paul also wrote, “It is better to marry than to burn” and that men should only marry to avoid sexual immorality if they are incontinent. The implication here is that marriage will stop the burning. He also said that in these end times, a man should act as if he has no wife. Wives, don't you know that once you get that “burning” started, men have a very hard time turning it off? The desire becomes more and more intense, and the good men suffer, because they struggle with it.
By now you are probably thinking I am some nun ready to slap the prude ruler over your hands. Not the case. But you ladies who say you are Christians (“christian” means “little Christ”) should really stop and consider the damage being done to our brothers, our sisters, and society at large. The small choices you make DO have historical repercussions for others.
I am not against sex, I have been married for 18 years (to the same man!). But first and foremost, I belong to Jesus Christ. And any woman who says she belongs to Christ needs to consider what He would want, and not what hubby wants or VD wants, or what other ladies want, or what Hugh Hefner's banker wants. Believe me, they are laughing all the way to the bank.
I am not against fun sex. I have a great time with it myself. And I have some delicates that I have bought (not through catalogs, but discreetly, through JC Penney stores-- and even these things are not exotic or porny in any way-- they are still very modest). I am not against makeup, I'm not against hairstyles... sigh.. I am not here to promote some prudish religion. But I am here to admonish some of you Christians who say you serve Christ but think of nothing but your own little world.
Keep in mind these things: are you sinning against someone's weak conscience by buying that stuff? Are you helping your husband serve the Lord in this matter since He will return soon, or is this bringing your husband further into bondage and distraction? The question among us Christians should NOT be “what is your opinion about...” it SHOULD be “what does Jesus want me to do to live a holy life and be salt and light to others?”
“For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? Now 'if the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the sinner and ungodly appear?'” 1 Peter 4:17.
One final note to the lady who said, “According to my pastor, there is nothing defiled in the marriage bed.” Either you are misunderstanding your pastor, or you are totally deceived. There is no justification anywhere that says a couple can do anything in their marriage bed and it is undefiled pro bono. The scripture is teaching about fidelity, not marital permissiveness. The scripture reads, “Marriage in honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge. Conduct yourselves without lust, and be content with such things as you have.” Hebrews 13:4, 5.
And besides, is it unwise to think that just because “my pastor says so” then it must be OK! That is dangerous thinking.
I don't mean to blast people, but as I read so many Christian women blogs, I am disappointed to find so few women who really want to be holy for Jesus and consider others for the gospel's sake. Jesus is coming back very soon. What manner of persons ought we to be in holy conduct and godliness, in the home and out of the home?
Ok, so, I hope you don't mind my posting to your blog, being a man. :-) However, given that certain things have been claimed here regarding my particular gender hopefully I at least have some standing to comment. Specifically in regards to the points made by Sunny.
Solomon was off to a good start with God, but became a PERVERT and forsook the Lord.
On what basis do you say this? I do not believe it has any basis in Scripture, but I'm open to hearing your argument.
1 Cor 8:11-13
This is hardly applicable to what a married couple does in the privacy of their bedroom.
1 Peter 3:3-4
I don't think anyone here is making outward adornment the focus of their beauty. From what you've said elsewhere you seem to know already that this verse doesn't forbid these things, but rather the particular attitude that goes with them, so again this doesn't apply to this discussion.
1 Tim 2:9
This instruction is given in the context of instructions to Timothy as a pastor in terms of the church. It comes with directions to deacons and proper church order. This is a pastoral letter. It again is not talking about the way a woman dresses in her bedroom. As far as I know, none of these women wear their lingerie to church. ;-)
the Greek says PORNEO here
I'll note you don't go on to say anything about this. I can only assume you mean for people to read into it a specific meaning on this basis. Porneia is a general word for 'sexual sin' generally implying the act itself done in a way outside of God's design. It is not a reference to "pornography", though it is the root word the English word derives from. Nobody denies sexual immorality is wrong, however you have yet to demonstrate that wearing lingerie for your husband is sexually immoral.
The stuff from the book of Song of Solomon got Solomon in trouble later, remember?
No, actually, I don't. Perhaps I'm just being absent minded though, it's certainly possible. I haven't done any recent studies on the life of Solomon for sure. I'm not saying Solomon never erred, but I think I'm safe in saying that what is in this book is not what got him in trouble.
who are you affecting when you buy that lingerie and pump money into a system designed to bring men down
Probably a valid point to a limited extent. There certainly are places that we should not patronize, but as you yourself noted not every place that sells lingerie is run by Hugh Hefner or whoever else in the porn industry.
I'm sorry for what your husband is exposed to. However, I don't think that you can rationally leap from "these women like to wear lingerie for their husbands" to "these women buy their lingerie through mail-order catalogs", or even that they do it from Victoria's Secret.
Women seem to have a hard understanding the sexual drive of man. That is, once you start it up, like the Energizer Bunny, it goes on and on.. it is never satisfied.
Given the rest of your message I have to assume you see this as a bad thing. Yet this is the way God created us. He created us to have that hunger and desire, and for it to be for our wives. The distortion that sin brings to that is the lack of discrimination and proper satisfaction within the bounds of marriage.
Paul wrote “It is good for a man not to touch a woman.” Wow, that is a far cry from what Solomon said, isn't it?
Yes, but we also know that Scripture does not contradict itself. It is true that we interpret the old testament through the lens of the new, and yes Solomon made mistakes, but so did everyone God used to write Scripture. Yet nowhere in scripture is there an entire book that we're supposed to take as negative instruction. That the central (positive) point of the book is to be taken as something not to do.
So what does Paul mean in this passage? You left out the initial part of that verse where he indicates he's responding to questions. What were the questions?
The book reveals to us the situations that caused the Corinthians to write. There were false prophets among them. One of the big heresies of the time was gnosticism. I rejection of the physical, particularly marriage. Paul is saying that it is good to not be married if God has given you that gift. Certainly to be granted that gift it is a good thing. You can be focused on Christ and your whole life can be dedicated to God. Your days are not affected by concerns for your wife and children.
men should only marry to avoid sexual immorality if they are incontinent
You make it sound like Paul is teaching that marriage is a refuge for weak men with no self-restraint. That is not at all what Paul is saying. When Paul here is unmarried it is likely he is referring to men who have lost their wives as opposed to widows, who have lost their husbands.
Here (1Cor 7:8-9) Paul is saying that a second marriage after this is permissible. He would prefer they not do so, but if they find it difficult to maintain self-control in that situation, if they burn with passion, then they should marry for that is far better. Some have a gift for that and some do not.
He also said that in these end times, a man should act as if he has no wife.
Again, context is important. Paul speaks throughout this chapter (7) of the hazards of the time. Consider vs 28, stating that if people marry, they will have trouble in this life and he is trying to spare them.
That is not a reference to marriage itself being trouble. It is a reference to the great danger of the time. Christians were under heavy persecution. Marriage and the cares and concerns that go with it would make their life even more difficult as they faced them. They would face more temptation in the face of persecution. Paul seeks to spare them from the potential misery of that situation.
Paul goes on in 29 to extend this argument. If you have a wife, in light of what short time they had for the work to be done, do not be tempted by the risk to spend all your time with your wife but rather be sure not to neglect your duty to God.
This is not an indictment of his desire for her. It is a recognition of the unique temptations that severe persecution can bring.
Wives, don't you know that once you get that “burning” started, men have a very hard time turning it off? The desire becomes more and more intense, and the good men suffer, because they struggle with it.
I'd really like to know what you mean by this. Yes, if my wife arouses me, it's not an off switch, but it's not like it doesn't go away. But it's not like it goes on for hours or days or years. I can't imagine this is really what you're trying to assert here - perhaps you could clarify for me? Theoretically, when a woman wears alluring clothing for her husband the intent is to satisfy within a reasonable time frame. I'm not sure why he would go on burning and have it get more and more intense - or why that would cause him to suffer.
And any woman who says she belongs to Christ needs to consider what He would want, and not what hubby wants
Well, I would caution you here. Because scripture is quite clear about the role of the husband and the wife in marriage. It is also quite clear that God's design for marriage includes sex and desire. He is clear that what the husband and wife want from each other is to be given within the context of this discussion, and that is, among other things, what God wants. (1Cor 7:3-4)
God doesn't want either to do so in a way that detracts from Christian stewardship, but this discussion is not about people being so caught up in a sexual relationship with their spouse they neglect God.
even these things are not exotic or porny in any way-- they are still very modest
What is 'porny'? Anything that might be used in a pornographic film or picture? is not sex itself used? What about nudity? What is wrong with exotic? How important is modesty in an outfit that is (presumably) going to be removed anyway?
But I am here to admonish some of you Christians who say you serve Christ but think of nothing but your own little world.
This is a pretty strong accusation against these women. Do you even know any of them? Do you know anything about them beyond the fact that they seem to love their husbands and sometimes wear lingerie for their husbands? I happen to know some of them and I can guarantee you this is not the case.
Keep in mind these things: are you sinning against someone's weak conscience by buying that stuff? Are you helping your husband serve the Lord in this matter since He will return soon, or is this bringing your husband further into bondage and distraction?
Context context context. Paul here speaks of meat sacrificed to idols, He speaks to the fact that many do not understand that they eat because they know there is no God but one, and that the idol is nothing. They, being ignorant (in the literal sense), believe that the idol has in some way tainted the food, so to eat it would taint them. And so they are tempted to do what is against their own conscience because of what they observed.
That again doesn't really apply to this situation, with the possible exception of the mailman delivering you a mail-order magazine. In romans 14 we are also taught not to regard with contempt those with convictions different than ours. What we do out of love for our brothers is not an invitation for those who choose to not be discerning to exert their preferences as binding upon others. (And that is not meant to imply you fall into this camp, it is a general point).
There is no justification anywhere that says a couple can do anything in their marriage bed and it is undefiled
Well, to be honest, this passage doesn't say it, though it is commonly interpreted that way. The point here is that marriage itself is a good thing and not to be dishonored, but honored. The marriage bed likewise is to be undefiled. I.e., no adultery.
I would say that I expect the lady above would agree, as would her pastor, that there are boundaries to such an assertion. Neither would promote bring in another person as permissible. Or even the viewing of pornography, I'm sure. However, we must also be careful to recognize that God places the boundaries, not man. We know what sexual immorality is, it is defined for us. These things are off limits inside or outside of marriage.
To go beyond this and attempt to define for ourselves what is and is not sexual immorality and then bind that on other believers is extremely dangerous territory.
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?
James 4:12
Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Romans 14:4
You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.
1 Cor 7:23
'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
Matt 15:9
God alone is Lord of the conscience, and hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men which are in any thing contrary to his word, or not contained in it. So that to believe such doctrines, or obey such commands out of conscience, is to betray true liberty of conscience; and the requiring of an implicit faith, an absolute and blind obedience, is to destroy liberty of conscience and reason also.
2nd LBCF, 21:3
Well, let me first say that I'm glad others are as *ahem* interested in this subject as I am! :) I had no idea this post would garner such theological ranklings!
But I'm glad to hear from a variety of people in all different areas.
I figured since I was the one that started this whole conversation, I should at least weigh in on it myself. First off, let me answer the questions, simply, and as openly as I can without being base.
(1) God designed the female body, curves and all. So while some of the styles may have come from the world (which is the case no matter where or when you live, or what culture you live in), I don't see that as a necessarily sinful thing. Now, I personally wouldn't purchase little bunny ears to add to my eveningwear, as I think that would be remniscent of the whole Pl@yboy magazine thing, and I certainly don't want to allude to that. But suffice it to say, I don't think we are imitating the world or cheapening intercourse per se when we use lingerie as an allurement for our husbands.
(2) I DO think that it is acceptable and good to be visually pleasing for our husbands. Both in and out of the bedroom. We don't know much of what the men of the Bible looked like (aside from perhaps their hairlength or strength, if it was necessary for the story). But we see many descriptions of women as beautiful: Sarah, Rachel, Eve, the Shulammite woman. True, our outward adornment ought not to be the center of our lives, or the only thing we focus our minds on, but I see nothing in scripture prohibitive of making it a consideration. And verses like Job 31:1 and Proverbs 5 give us insight as to the visual nature of men (even if we didn't see it exhibited among the men we know). All that to say, as the beauty of the female body was called "good" by God, and certainly that has been echoed by billions of men throughout the history of the world, yes, I think it's great to be visually pleasing to our husbands.
(3) Lemme just say, yes. I do.
(4) Yes, I didn't really realize until we moved overseas how much I enjoyed having little surprises for my husband. I do make it a priority, not because it has to be, but because it's fun. Just the same way I enjoy playing board games with Doug. We are always interested in finding another classic board game to enjoy, and it's the same way with this topic. It's not that it's a centerpiece of our physical relationship, but it's a fun thing I enjoy giving to him. (I like to think of it as the gift that keeps on giving!)
(5) The whole reason I asked the question is to see the different convictions people have. I knew that at least one person would be totally against it, and then I figured that others would be totally OK with it.
To me, this is a Romans 14 issue. By that I mean, this is like pork. It's unnecessary for living, and therefore, if it caused my husband to stumble in some way, then of course, I could do without it. If it caused my friend grief to know that I had lingerie in my drawer, then I wouldn't open it in front of her. I certainly wouldn't intentionally allow anyone but my husband to know what I have or what it looks like. But I myself don't see it as anything sinful.
"I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it is unclean."
I do have complete compassion and sympathy for the poor men and women who are required to see things like racy catalogs (not just postal workers-- also gas station workers, and often truckers and others will encounter this on a regular basis). I remember when Doug worked north of Dallas and had to go up a particular highway that was laden with billboards advertising strip clubs. It was a visual minefield for him, and I prayed fervently for him, for his purity, and that he would stand up under the temptation he encountered there.
But the fact that there is temptation out there doesn't require that I eliminate certain fabrics and items for use in my own home with my own husband.
I agree, we do need to be cautious what companies we are supporting by buying these items, but that is an entirely different conversation. The point here is that the look itself, if done moderately with one's one husband, is not inherently sinful.
Thanks for all your thoughts- I've really enjoyed reading the ongoing discussion!
Oh- and I intended to tell Mr. Shamgar and any other men that happen by on this blog that yes, you are entirely welcome to comment anytime you so desire.
My readers are primarily women, so I have the tendency to address questions as such, but I'm all for EOBC (equal opportunity blog commenting). :)
Just had to say. Verrrrrrrrrrry interesting. :-) And thank you, Shamgar, for saving me a lot of time and energy and saying some things I was wanting to say much more articulately than I would have!
Hope ya'all who try to justify the "I'm OK, you're OK" mentality or the "it's MY life and MY bedroom" mentality feel better about your sin. Cuz it isn't supported in scripture. Some (like Shamgar) throw flowers and hearts and unfounded opinions rather than sound doctrine. You aren't supposed to possess your vessel in passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God, but in sanctification and honor. That "I can do anything I choose in MY OWN bedroom without anyone JUDGING me" is also unscriptural. What on earth do you think Paul was doing??
Anyway, it is indeed true that some are going to believe what they want to believe, and call it "freedom."
What ever happened to "I am crucified with Christ-- it's no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me"? Or is that only for outside YOUR bedroom? Whatever... the word is out.
Sunny, I let your last post through because I believe you may be a new reader, and I want to be gracious and allow you to feel welcome here to post your thoughts.
HOWEVER- (and this is a big however)- while I do not in the least mind people who disagree with me, or other readers/posters, I do want us to all be respectful of one another.
While you feel strongly that this is sinful, it is plain to all that there is no scripture that says "do not wear certain fabrics/cuts to delight your husband". If there were, this whole discussion would be a moot point.
I imagine some of you (including Sunny) may want to come back and continue this discussion, but a word of warning to everyone: comment moderation will be practiced from here on out, so please- restrain from personal attacks or emotional comments, or your comment will never see the light of day (beyond my own computer screen).
Back your comments up with the word of God and speak with love, and all will be well and welcomed, even those views that vastly differ from my own or from other people's.
I was sitting here listening to music, and just happened to think - I wonder if anyone else had comments to make on that thread...
Lo and behold, someone did. :-)
Hope ya'all who try to justify the "I'm OK, you're OK" mentality or the "it's MY life and MY bedroom" mentality feel better about your sin.
I'm sorry, I don't see where you get "I'm OK you're OK" from my post. I'm more than willing to overlook the slight, but I'm not willing to overlook your assumption of conclusion not demonstrated.
If you wish to say that something I have defended is a sin, then please do so. But be specific, and back it up with Scripture and not unfounded assertions. I am certainly not above correction, but I'm going to need something more than a blanket accusation to go on.
Cuz it isn't supported in scripture. Some (like Shamgar) throw flowers and hearts and unfounded opinions rather than sound doctrine.
I tried very hard to avoid making my post into a dissertation. I tend to do that if left unchecked, and it bores most people. :-) If you have an issue with something I have said, please, be specific. Lets discuss it. I think it's hardly appropriate to toss out the entirety of my post (which was fairly lengthy and specific, and contained biblical and historical citations) with a wave. You're just going to have to do a little better than that.
Assuming, that is, that your goal is to edify the people here reading this blog.
You aren't supposed to possess your vessel in passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God, but in sanctification and honor.
I don't remember anyone endorsing that here, and a quick review of the posts listed seems to support that evaluation. It sounds to me like you are assuming facts not in evidence and leaping to conclusions that are not justified from the statements that have been made.
How about a little charity for your fellow believers?
That "I can do anything I choose in MY OWN bedroom without anyone JUDGING me" is also unscriptural. What on earth do you think Paul was doing??
Well, Paul did a lot of things. What specifically did you have in mind? It sounds like you might be arguing from a particular to a universal. Assuming that because we state that God has not spoken on a particular topic, that it becomes a matter of Christian liberty - that we somehow also must think there is no room for judgment on any point. This is a thoroughly unfounded conclusion.
Indeed, I believe I was quite specific in my post that there are definitely boundaries placed around what we do in our bedrooms as much as anywhere else. I gave a couple of examples, but didn't feel it necessary to spell out every possible thing that might fall into this category.
We are quite clearly to be discerning. However, nowhere do I see in Scripture any sort of instruction to treat a brother in the manner you did here. Not even one who is caught in an actual sin. Rather, in such a case Paul clearly instructs us that we "who are spiritual should restore him gently". We are told to speak "only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear." Do you feel your response falls within that instruction?
What ever happened to "I am crucified with Christ-- it's no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me"? Or is that only for outside YOUR bedroom?
Nothing happened to it. I don't see how that is incompatible with anything I said. Perhaps if you return you can clear that up as well.
Good question, very important stuff!
1)Only if you wear sleazy clothes on the outside every day - miniskirts, plunging necklines, huge "hooker heel" shoes...that is the attire of an harlot, and we should not be wearing that in public. But there's nothing wrong with flaunting it for your husband, at home, in private.
2)Yes, it is very important. My husband often tells me that he has to spend so much time averting his eyes out in public, and he likes being free to look at me - that's why it's important. Men are visual, and they need to look at their woman! It's good for us, too - doesn't it make you feel good when your husband tells you that you look beautiful?
3)Yes, I own a little bit. It's not something I buy very much of - it's expensive, and so much of what's out there is really slutty looking. HI also don't wear it too often.
4) Nope. If I spend any money on lingerie, it's mostly on new bras. It isn't a priority in our marriage to have fancy eveningwear. It's just something I do on special occasions.
5) Not sure. I know that the Bible encourages husbands and wives to be always sexually available for one another (No giving him the cold shoulder, ladies! LOL), and that the marriage bed is pure and undefiled (I'm pretty sure that means anything goes...). I haven't found anything that would indicate racy lingerie is bad.
Jess,
I wanted to thank you, and all the ladies (and man) that posted! This is something that I have been thinking about and am glad I am not alone! I like lingerie, but was not sure about the biblical aspects. I am also glad to know I am not the only one who's husband likes her "natural"! He does not see the point to lingerie, as long as he can take it off!
Well, I don't really have anything like that, since my husband likes my floor-length nightgowns the best, LOL! Because of that, I've never really given the topic much thought. I don't see anything wrong with dressing to please your husband, but we DO have to be careful, as we can take anything too far. Interesting debate.
Okay, I love your blog, it is so helpful! I won't answer your questions because . . .ahem . . . I don't want talk so personally about my personal life. lol
However, I have noticed a trend on Christian ladies blogs to talk about pleasing our husbands. We have all learned so much of what we need to do. It is right that we please our husbands in this area and good grief, we definitely do need to be reminded of it! Yet, how many of you guys are blogging about how you need to start learning how to please your wife? It would be so encouraging to see that it isn't just us ladies who need to be doing all of the work.
Just a thought.
In His Grace,
Mama Russell
I just had to put in by two bits here. Marriage is a wonderful thing, and a wife should be beautiful even in bed. A lacy nightgown, a feminine teddy... but as a wife and mother who has been through it all, I have found that being godly beautiful and being worldly beautiful are two different things. I have worn both beautiful and highly attractive things, and I have also worn 'naughty' and bad girl lingerie. I have to tell you the difference it had always made. With the one, i was treated as a beautiful woman and adored wife... while wearing the other, I was always made into the cheap toy. I was no longer his bride he made love to, but I was turned into a 'thing'. His desire for me was not out of a godly love, but a carnal nature that I hated, to the very pit of my stomach. By what I wore,it either brought beauty to the bed or pure lust. And I must caution all woman... when we put that lust into our husbands, it only feeds for more, and this world has no shortage of oppertunities for that. Beautiful lengerie,I am all for, But as for making yourself into a kind of porn star,(naughty or kinky) it does cheapen the marriage bed. It cheapens the woman and it cheapens what God calls beauty.
.(kinky lingerie...kinky means perverted,and wearing kinky lingerie perverts the purity of our men and ourselves... just think about that work kinky for a moment) So please, when choosing lingerie, make sure it is "truly" beautiful. Let him look at you in it and think 'I,m the luckiest man in the world' He will love you. If you cheapen yourself, he will use you.
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